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+rocketman !JGlOo5d1iU — 11 months ago, 20 minutes later, 5 hours after the original post[^][v]#97,010
she's a woman, too. She converted because of catholcism's superior morality. More evidence that women have just become a distraction to the non-theist movement.
We give them special protections at events, and they act as if isolated creepers mean that there is a serious problem with the treatment of women in the atheist movement because some awkward fucks come on to women.
They're lucky we don't just rape them as is our right as men! Women are only good for two things — raping and killing.
·Anonymous A (OP) — 11 months ago, 2 minutes later, 8 hours after the original post[^][v]#97,169
@previous(rocketman)
The orthodox church is not heretical. By definition. When Catholics cease to be the largest Christian denomination, such claims can be heard.
·scatman — 11 months ago, 7 minutes later, 9 hours after the original post[^][v]#97,194
@97,158(A)
"And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities." Revelation 18:4-5
+kookooburra !WfGl8QSvHw — 11 months ago, 2 hours later, 15 hours after the original post[^][v]#97,328
There's no proof for many of their claims?
It's ostentasious to have a man of god surrounded by gold, and velvet?
It has a history of hiding child predators?
·scatman — 11 months ago, 1 minute later, 22 hours after the original post[^][v]#97,400
@previous(A)
The Bible manuscripts were gathered by the earliest Christians. It was then distorted by the Vatican and then restored during the Reformation by such great men as Wycliffe, Luther, and the translators of the KJV.
·Anonymous A (OP) — 11 months ago, 46 seconds later, 22 hours after the original post[^][v]#97,401
@97,328(kookooburra)
Their appreciation of art and beauty is a reason to join them. There is no institutional problem with child predators. Not a coincidence that the hiding happened in liberal, social justice, practically secular dioceses.
·Anonymous A (OP) — 11 months ago, 1 minute later, 22 hours after the original post[^][v]#97,403
@97,400(scatman)
... the bible was WRITTEN by the early christians... it was collected and canonized by the catholic church. Nothing was restored by Luther or Wycliffe or the translators of the KJV.
·scatman — 11 months ago, 3 minutes later, 22 hours after the original post[^][v]#97,407
@previous(A)
Manuscripts that were hidden by the Vatican (the Textus Receptus) were recovered at that time. Truth came back to the earth with the Reformation and the power of Satan and the Vatican begun to crumble.
·Anonymous A (OP) — 11 months ago, 8 minutes later, 22 hours after the original post[^][v]#97,417
@97,407(scatman)
LOL! The Textus Receptus is a Greek New Testament produced by Erasmus. It was not hidden by the Vatican. The Reformation attempted to divorce the bible from the church that wrote it, and got confused.
·scatman — 11 months ago, 3 minutes later, 22 hours after the original post[^][v]#97,418
@previous(A)
The Reformation divorced from Satan and its beliefs. The Reformation divorced from a corrupt organization that has lead millions astray and to the paths of hell. Every time I read the Holy Bible, I'm glad I can, I'm glad victory has been won over Satan.
·Anonymous A (OP) — 11 months ago, 7 minutes later, 22 hours after the original post[^][v]#97,419
@97,409(scatman)
hilarious. Early Christians used the Septuagint. This contained books that were not in the Hebrew (Jewish) bible. Why do you think we should follow teaching of the Jews instead of the Church?
·Anonymous A (OP) — 11 months ago, 4 minutes later, 23 hours after the original post[^][v]#97,424
@previous(scatman)
The Catholic Church also changed the day of worship from Saturday to Sunday. I take you still worship on the Sabbath?
No, Jerome made the Vulgate. A translation by one man. The canon of scripture, however, was decided by a council of the bishops of the catholic church.
·scatman — 11 months ago, 2 minutes later, 23 hours after the original post[^][v]#97,425
@previous(A) > The Catholic Church also changed the day of worship from Saturday to Sunday.
Nice try. http://carm.org/questions/about-doctrine/why-do-we-worship-sunday-instead-saturday > No, Jerome made the Vulgate. A translation by one man. The canon of scripture, however, was decided by a council of the bishops of the catholic church.
Again. Romans 3:4. These men lied and forged scripture for personal gain and Satan's purposes.
·kookooburra !WfGl8QSvHw — 11 months ago, 19 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^][v]#97,512
@97,401(A)
Some dislike seeing ostentatious displays of wealth connected to religious leaders. I've spoken to many different Christians of other denominations, and that point is brought up frequently (none are from mega churches). Also, a lot of people expect better behavior from religious leaders, than they would from ordinary people. Most Christian sects are against sex before marriage, and it bothers them when men who have taken vows of celibacy convince or coerce children break this taboo. This also comes up frequently when discussing the Catholic Church with other Christians.
·Anonymous A (OP) — 11 months ago, 1 hour later, 1 day after the original post[^][v]#97,595
@previous(kookooburra)
The wealth is not connected to the religious leaders. It is the wealth of the Church. The Catholic Church is rich - the Pope is not. In many evangelical churches, the pastors are privately very rich from their ministries.
The same behavior is expected of all people. Leaders are not semi-divine that they should act differently.
The USA has had a long standing prejudice against Catholics. People have deep-seated animosity against them, from many sources.
·kookooburra !WfGl8QSvHw — 11 months ago, 10 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^][v]#97,597
@previous(A)
It's not necessarily about the amount of money an organization has, but how they show it. A lot of mainstream, Christians seem to be turned off by the opulence. Most of these people also hate televangelists, and mega churches.
Aren't these men supposed to be moral leaders? They work for an institution that teaches strict abstinence until marriage, and than convince children to do something that's seen as a sin. People are very put off by the various Catholic church child abuse scandals.
·Anonymous A (OP) — 11 months ago, 5 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^][v]#97,599
@previous(kookooburra) > Mainstream Christians > not catholic or evangelical
I think you mean "Mainline" - these churches haven't been mainstream for a long time now.
Priests are meant to be moral leaders. What they did was bad. This happens in all institutions. The reason it is focused on is because of a deeply ingrained anti-clericalist mentality within the American people.
·kookooburra !WfGl8QSvHw — 11 months ago, 20 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^][v]#97,604
@previous(A)
Do a lot of other religious institutions send accused child molesters to new locations? That's basically rewarding the guy, by giving him fresh kids.
·rocketman !JGlOo5d1iU — 11 months ago, 6 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^][v]#97,605
@97,599(A)
You are insane. It's because men were preying on children and weren't punished but protected. More children were abused because of the actions of the catholic church. It's happened in multiple countries that we know of.
·rocketman !JGlOo5d1iU — 11 months ago, 1 hour later, 1 day after the original post[^][v]#97,666
@97,610(A)
Known child predators were quietly relocated and allowed to work directly with children. Neither parents or fellows were made aware.
Look into what went on in alaska. It's truly awful what the church caused.
@97,604(kookooburra)
It's happened, but never at the level of the catholic church. In most cases, it's the isolated actions of a few people, but it was systemic in the catholic church.
·Anonymous J — 11 months ago, 1 minute later, 1 day after the original post[^][v]#97,767
@97,666(rocketman)
Once again, you talk nonsense. There are no levels in most Protestant churches. They are independent. There was no systemic problem in the catholic church, but bishops going outside the system.
·rocketman !JGlOo5d1iU — 11 months ago, 12 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^][v]#97,889
@97,767(J)
It has been admitted to in court. The reason why the problem was so rampant wasn't the amount of offenders but the offenders ability to keep re-offending. You are delusional.
·Anonymous A (OP) — 11 months ago, 2 minutes later, 1 day after the original post[^][v]#98,120
@97,873(kookooburra)
I've never been part of such a denomination. I would encourage you to do a bit of research in that area. Investigate Mainline Protestant Churches.
The denominations I have been part of had independent churches, so there was no ability for this to happen. Yet in one there was very high up CSA, which was kept secret until the man died.
·kookooburra !WfGl8QSvHw — 11 months ago, 19 minutes later, 2 days after the original post[^][v]#98,311
@previous(rocketman)
Yeah,I agree. I just wanted to know if he had proof of his claims. It's crazy. They punished suspected child predators,by sending them to new places with new children.
These men who preach abstinence, are enticing or coercing children into committing mortal sins. That's fucked up. That's worse than Sandusky.
·Anonymous A (OP) — 11 months ago, 1 minute later, 2 days after the original post[^][v]#98,322
@98,297(kookooburra)
wtf... I just said the complete opposite of that. I said all the churches I have been a part of were independent. "Shipping around" was impossible. But secrecy and silence regarding claims of CSA seems to be relatively similar.
·Raes Rimbottom !!Ma36lPj2II — 11 months ago, 5 hours later, 2 days after the original post[^][v]#98,410
@98,321(A)
The bishops didn't isolate any church turns. If I'm wrong, please indicate, but no bishop has ever been penalized for their actions concerning the movements of priest who have raped children.
Surely, if bishops were violating rules they would have been disciplined in some way. I don't even recall anything in Boston or California where the negligence was pretty egregious.
·Raes Rimbottom !!Ma36lPj2II — 11 months ago, 1 hour later, 2 days after the original post[^][v]#98,621
@98,477(A)
The church's own statute of limitations? You realize that such a lapse in judgement would require immediate dismissal from any other employer, right?
·kookooburra !WfGl8QSvHw — 11 months ago, 1 minute later, 2 days after the original post[^][v]#98,752
@98,729(A)
If someone had raped an old person,they would have been fired from a retirement home,and never allowed to work in one again. If they molested a child, they never should have been allowed to work with children again.
·kookooburra !WfGl8QSvHw — 11 months ago, 1 minute later, 3 days after the original post[^][v]#98,799
@98,785(A)
What they did was horrible,and shouldn't be overlooked. They rewarded child predators with fresh children. Why would you want to be part of an organization that would do such things? An institution that's supposed to lead the world in moral issues?
·Anonymous A (OP) — 11 months ago, 21 minutes later, 3 days after the original post[^][v]#98,828
@previous(kookooburra)
By referring to consensual sex between adults and minors as rape you trivialize the actual, violent, non-consensual crime of rape.
@previous(kookooburra) > You claimed that these crimes weren't serious.
where?
·Raes Rimbottom !!Ma36lPj2II — 11 months ago, 10 minutes later, 3 days after the original post[^][v]#98,841
@98,729(A)
No. Cover up the molestation of children, get sacked. No bishop has been disciplined for shipping around offending priests. It hasn't happened. You can't claim it was breaking any church rules because the church hasn't taken action against them.
·kookburra !!ju/YYPoVZA — 11 months ago, 8 minutes later, 3 days after the original post[^][v]#98,861
@previous(A)
These are facts. Child predators were rewarded with new children. This hurt more children unnecessarily. This is a real crime. Listen to real testimony and tell me that all of these incidences were consensual.
It's a interesting documentary. You might like it.
·Raes Rimbottom !!Ma36lPj2II — 11 months ago, 26 minutes later, 3 days after the original post[^][v]#98,870
@98,853(A)
You are being dense. You can be terminated for employment at any time for such an offense in relation to your employment. It shows a serious lack of ethics and a risk to your employer (financially and in terms of reputation).
It's a poor decision to not sack someone who makes such an act.
·Anonymous A (OP) — 11 months ago, 3 hours later, 3 days after the original post[^][v]#98,997
@98,861(kookburra) > These are facts.
No, these are interpretations of facts. Most of them either unknowable or obviously false.
> Child predators were rewarded with new children.
Please. You are being ridiculous. You think the bishops were rewarding the priests? You think the bishops thought "Good job! As a reward, you may now molest these children!" Fuck off. Not even you could be that dense. Reactions would have ranged from "Oh shit get this man as far away from these children as possible" to "We must remove this man from his homosexual lover immediately and end this sinful relationshipt, this is a disgrace" to "Keep your illicit homosexual romances more discreet next time" in some of the more liberal diocese.
> This hurt more children unnecessarily.
Many bishops claimed to have been acting on the advice of psychiatrists etc. Our opinions have changed in the last 50 years. Do not judge past actions by today's standards, but view them in context.
> This is a real crime. Listen to real testimony and tell me that all of these incidences were consensual.
When did I say it wasn't a crime? When did I say that all instances of adult-minor sex were consensual? Stop making shit up.
> It's a interesting documentary. You might like it.
I will watch it!
·Anonymous A (OP) — 11 months ago, 4 minutes later, 3 days after the original post[^][v]#98,998
@98,870(Raes Rimbottom)
That's the point though - the church can't "fire" priests like you say. A priest is an ontological state. Laicization (unmaking a priest) is a long and difficult process, subject to many conditions.
·kookburra !!ju/YYPoVZA — 11 months ago, 26 minutes later, 3 days after the original post[^][v]#99,044
@98,997(A)
It doesnt matter the reason for why they were rewarded with new children .It happened over and over again. I'd love to see any psychiatrists statements, telling them to send suspected child predators to new places with no warning to the parishioners.
You claimed that it wasn't a real crime, because they instances weren't really non consensual, like real rape.
·kookburra !!ju/YYPoVZA — 11 months ago, 22 minutes later, 3 days after the original post[^][v]#99,116
@99,060(A)
You made this statement. Any info for it?
Many bishops claimed to have been acting on the advice of psychiatrists etc. Our opinions have changed in the last 50 years. Do not judge past actions by today's standards, but view them in context.
@previous(kookburra)
Yes. Much of what you call "shipping around" is a priest moving to another city. Priests can not just do this without authorization. Other instances involve bishops telling priests to go to therapy. You seem to take no notice of these circumstances when you form your opinions on the issue.
·kookburra !!ju/YYPoVZA — 11 months ago, 16 minutes later, 3 days after the original post[^][v]#99,423
@previous(A)
It makes it worse if the moves were authorized. Can't you see that? They sent predators to new cities,and didnt keep them away from children! If this was authorized it's a huge problem! Did any therapists tell them to do such things?
·Anonymous A (OP) — 11 months ago, 4 seconds later, 3 days after the original post[^][v]#99,426
@99,423(kookburra)
moving, not "being moved" i.e. the priest wanted to move to another city. Priests are not allowed to move without permission, though.
You're getting confused.
> Did any therapists tell them to do such things?
I imagine in many instances therapists told them such behavior could be managed and avoided.
·Anonymous A (OP) — 11 months ago, 2 minutes later, 3 days after the original post[^][v]#99,427
@99,425(kookburra)
That is not always the case. Many were moved and forbidden from exercising their pastoral duties, but eventually did so secretly.
Many people did not view the problem as pedophilia -i.e. this guy just can't stop himself touching children- but as homosexuality -i.e. this man has fallen in love with a younger man. They need to be split up.
·kookburra !!ju/YYPoVZA — 11 months ago, 28 seconds later, 3 days after the original post[^][v]#99,428
@99,426(A)
The highers up allowed such moves,and didn't stop the crimes from happening again. That's horrible. Who were they helping? Why were these men allowed near children again?
·Anonymous A (OP) — 11 months ago, 17 seconds later, 3 days after the original post[^][v]#99,432
@99,428(kookburra)
They allowed such moves because they thought it would be in everyone's best interests. Your idea that certain bishops were actively trying to make priests molest as many children as possible is laughably stupid.
·Anonymous A (OP) — 11 months ago, 1 minute later, 3 days after the original post[^][v]#99,447
@99,435(kookburra)
We know that, looking back, some 50-30 years in the future, but at the time that was not so clear.
@99,436(kookburra)
I am merely presenting possibilities. You are asking questions - "How can this be?" I am offering logically deduced possibilites of how it came to be.
·Anonymous A (OP) — 11 months ago, 3 minutes later, 3 days after the original post[^][v]#99,459
@previous(kookburra)
lol! Those people should have been able to know what I have learned from watching their experience! Undoubtedly that happened in some situations.
Yes, in fact, I can, and I just did. All I am doing is offering a logical framework for understanding what happened. Your hyperbole doesn't offer that.
·kookburra !!ju/YYPoVZA — 11 months ago, 2 minutes later, 3 days after the original post[^][v]#99,462
@previous(A)
You don't know that they snuck around, so don't make the claim.
If these predators werent declared cured, they should have been monitored,and not allowed around children. The church fucked up, and it might never come back from these scandals.
·Anonymous A (OP) — 11 months ago, 9 minutes later, 3 days after the original post[^][v]#99,469
@previous(kookburra) > You don't know that they snuck around, so don't make the claim.
Well, I do, having had read claims that this had happened. Furthermore, it is common sense.
> If these predators werent declared cured, they should have been monitored,and not allowed around children.
I agree! Of course, many were prohibited from officially exercising their pastoral roles, but did so clandestinely.
> The church fucked up, and it might never come back from these scandals.
Certain individuals within the church fucked up. YOu know nothing of history if you think the Church can't come back from this.
·Anonymous A (OP) — 11 months ago, 5 minutes later, 3 days after the original post[^][v]#99,476
@previous(kookburra) > You don't know that they snuck around and did this secretly. I'd love to see some links supporting this.
I do know, because I have read it. If you'd love to see some links, do some research.
> Has membership in the church been declining or increasing?
It has been increasing, obviously.
The 80th annual edition of the Yearbook reports a continuing decline in membership of virtually all mainline denominations. And the Southern Baptist Convention, the nation's second largest denomination and long a reliable generator of church growth, reported a decline in membership for the fourth year in a row, down .15 percent to 16,136,044 members.
The Catholic Church, the nation's largest at 68.2 million members, reported a membership decline of .44 percent.
But it was Islam that experienced the most explosive growth.
According to Ihsan Bagby, a professor of Islamic Studies at the University of Kentucky, there were about 1,200 mosques in America back in the year 2000.
According to this new census, there are now 2,106.
@99,044 (kookburra)